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 Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?

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Tothian
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PostSubject: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:34 pm

In my honest opinion, both good and bad leaders can make us better leaders. And by leaders, that could mean anyone with an influential position in our lives. Family, teachers, bosses - and yes - even peers. If all we had was good Leaders, we might never truly have a deeper understanding of how not to act, or what not to do, in certain situations. We can even learn from our own mistakes as well. If all we had was bad Leaders, we might never learn how to be a good Leader. But at the same time, we also learn how not to act.

Then, you must ask yourself, what really does make someone a good - or bad - Leader? Is it the effectiveness of how they can do what they do? Or is it the ethics behind it? I say both. But okay, then you ask, which one is more important? Granted, deep analysis is good for understanding things, but if you're looking at it from a matter of "Which one is better?" - I don't think you're looking at things from a constructive angle. Instead, the question should be, rather, "How can I balance the two and supplement them with each other?"

There can be a Leader who is effective at teaching you what it is you need to learn, ensuring that you are effective at doing what they are leading you to do, but also has many flawed traits that they don't want to admit, and don't care to try to fix.

Then, there's Leaders who have all the good, positive personality traits, and are friendly, trustworthy people, but lack competency.

In my opinion, true Leadership should never be a popularity contest. Because if you view "Being the Best!" as both the ends and means of Leadership, then that in itself is a flaw. Leadership, in one of countless descriptions, is theoretically creating those small ripples that in the long run, can turn in to tsunamis.

Those ripples represent those little actions that can have a lasting impact. Look at people in history whose Leadership in some way has an effect on the way the world is today.

If someone was purely the best Leader ever, then why couldn't they make the next generation of Leaders that they trained - learn how to be better than even themselves? If I am ever to train the next generation of superheroes, I want to train them to be even better than me. I have to tell them of my own flaws, and mistakes I made, and also how and why they weren't constructive. So that they won't be as likely to make such mistakes - or if they do, they will be able to catch themselves, acknowledge it, and seek to fix that problem. And of course the successes as well, so that they can have an example of what to aspire towards.

So therefore, thinking of "Being the best" is counter-productive in practice, and also not a moral nor ethical line of thinking. Being the best Leader YOU can be is being able to train the next generation of Leaders to be better than you.

Then of course, when the discussion of ethics in Leadership arise, the ends versus the means come in to question. As in, a Leader who puts minimal effort and gets great results, versus the one who puts great effort in to what they do, and get little or no results. "Who is the better Leader?" you ask? Still the wrong line of thinking for what I am trying to teach you. This should not confuse you. Instead, understand that there are so many countless different factors in judging effective or ineffective Leadership. Perhaps, your individual perception is your reality for your own reasons of what deep inside of you you're seeking to be led by. What you seek to learn, what you seek to accomplish.

The more Leaders you have - or have studied, the better. This includes both good and bad Leaders, as well as Leaders who have their own individual sets of good traits and bad traits. Even people you don't like, or people you may prefer to have nothing to do with, or want to deem irrelevant - those people matter too, and you can learn things from them as well.

As far as the tactics go, even the bad Leaders can still be effective Leaders, in the sense of, they have taught their mistakes to the future generations, so that they have a better idea of how not to act, and why not. They say that those who don't know history are condemned to repeat it. So, perhaps those considered bad Leaders - or, at least those who are more visible when it comes to their flaws - help others not make their mistakes, by making them known.

I remember sometimes I'd see shows like Jerry Springer on TV, when I was younger. I never tried to act like that. If anything, it showed me how NOT to act, I thought it was so stupid. I've noticed some leaders in the Marines that I'd consider bad Leaders. They didn't motivate me to want to continuously strive to be a better Marine, I didn't trust them, didn't like them, I didn't feel comfortable asking them questions, I wouldn't feel safe beside them in war - it was hard to relate to them and feel a spirit of camaraderie a lot of the time - but, they inadvertently did test me as a person, and they showed me through observation and experience what a bad Leader is. They motivated me to want to make sure that I never become like them.

I write this post so that those on the Heroes Network grow smarter and can take things like these in to consideration, because I believe that knowledge about things like this can be helpful in making all of you better leaders, so that you can make those who look up to you, or people you're in a position of guiding them - better and more effective Leaders, as well.

Sometimes it takes a dark room to be able to see the light of a candle more easily.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:02 am

Very true. Some leaders show their colors to the world and make it obvious of what not to become, while others show the strength, courage, and discipline that a mature leader should have and the real results to back it up when the challenge presents itself.


DS out
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:21 am

DarkShadow,

Exactly.

And also the idea of a Leader isn't always in what we "are", but rather in "what" we are leading, and "how". Our methods versus the results are a semi-related discussion, but also different things to take in to consideration. However, like I said, it shouldn't be a matter of which one has greater emphasis, but a different question entirely, as how the two would go together.

And, one thing I'm trying to emphasize, is that one goal of a Leader should be to make sure that what they're leading is passed on forever. And the fact that they taught something to be done a certain way, that the world was never the same - but preferably for the better.

But yes, it does take good leadership and bad leadership, to be able to tell the difference.

Not that we should aspire to be bad Leaders for that reason, but rather learn FROM the people who've lead but not lead the right way. And it's not as though the world will need more bad Leaders in order to make sure that process is still continued. History has already had a lot.

I do in a sense refer to taking a bad situation, and making it into a good situation. Instead of condemning someone for their mistakes, be thankful that something was able to be taught from it. And see what they learned from it.

And for the bad Leaders we've seen in history, or people who have done things a Leader shouldn't do, people could weigh the pro's and con's, to have a better understanding of such things.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:54 am

The question is-can bad leaders make us more effective leaders?

well judging by our president I'd say.....NO!lol
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:19 pm

Red Vision,

I'd say it depends on which you put more - or less - emphasis on.

Bad Leaders can't "make" us good nor more effective Leaders, nor can even a good Leader "make" someone a better nor effective Leader, neither. But, they can only be effective if their influence is supplemented with Good Leaders. So that people can learn both:

A- How to be a Leader.

and

B- How NOT to be a Leader.

The stress of dealing with a bad Leader can make someone realize "This person is doing it wrong, I need to show people how it's done right" - but obviously not for the sake of popularity, but rather, getting done what needs to be done.

And, the inspiration from learning from a good Leader can motivate someone to want to be a good Leader also.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:28 pm

you should run for election.lol
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:06 pm

I did for a local election as a write-in candidate in 2008, since nobody was running for that position, and I won. I didn't run for re-election a few years later though.

I like my current position helping this community though. It's something I have more knowledge and experience in, and more passion in.

I don't like the "politics" of politics, but I do find the elections interesting to watch, and anything related to Laws, Crimefighting, National Security, Homeland Security, National Defense, War - since my passion in life has always been protecting people and fighting evil. And the Leadership and Administration aspect of things are interesting for me to observe and analyze, to learn from.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:47 am

That makes sense,i'm alot like that as well. I follow elections & current news,cosidering uncle sam takes his cut out of me & future desisions seem to be so important. to much to ignore.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:20 am

Ah, I see what you mean.

Anyway, more about this thread - I'm going to make reference to the HN's favorite food = Pizza!

If I made you 5 pizza pies - and 2 of them were really good, 2 of them were really bad, and one was kind of alright - you would appreciate the better ones more by comparison. And, when making pizza yourself - you would know why you liked certain pizzas better and certain ones worse.

That doesn't mean that I would advise people to make bad pizzas - but rather, take the worst pizzas they've eaten, in to consideration, when making pizzas of their own - as a greater reminder of how and why better pizzas should be made.

And what I'm saying here doesn't even refer to only pizza. It can refer to many things. So, it's not a justification for things to be done wrong. But rather, taking those lemons that have already been thrown at you, and making lemon pie out of them. That doesn't mean throw lemons at others for them to make lemon pie. But because a lemon might have been thrown at you for you to be able to make lemon pie, should be all the more reason for you to hand a person a lemon in a friendly manner for them to be able to make a lemon pie, or even lemonade or a lemon icee if they so desire.
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:13 pm

I take it,your talking about trial & errors right? Where you could be more effective by bad leaders IF in example you were able to learn something by it,correct?
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PostSubject: Re: Can Bad Leaders Make Us More Effective Leaders?   Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:29 pm

Correct.
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